State Attorney Challenges FKAA Chairman’s Right To Vote In Key West Elections

by Naja and Arnaud Girard…….

Is the Florida Keys Aqueduct Authority taking on water? Two weeks ago an FKAA board member, Melva Wagner, was forced to resign. She had continued receiving benefits and payments as a board member even though she had moved away from her district almost a year ago.

This week it’s FKAA’s Chairman, J Robert Dean, who seems to be walking the plank. “I have reason to believe,” wrote State Attorney Catherine Vogel, after concluding her criminal investigation, “that James Robert Dean is attempting to vote illegally.”

The claim is somewhat more serious than in Ms. Wagner’s case. Dean has been voting in Key West elections, claiming to be a Key West resident. He was also appointed by Governor Bush to represent the Key West district on the FKAA Board of Directors.

In his 2004 application for board appointment he notified the Governor that he had moved to Key West.  He also changed his legal residence, on file with the Supervisor of Elections, to a small studio apartment he owns behind his Key West funeral home.

However, Dean and his wife have claimed a Homestead on their home in Key Haven for over thirty years and this week Chairman Dean had to admit to Chief Investigator Chris Weber of the State Attorney’s office that his real home is the one in Key Haven, located outside the City limits.

Chairman Dean may also be unlawfully sitting on the FKAA Board. The Florida Statute that created the Aqueduct Authority requires that each member reside in the district they represent. The districts mirror the five Monroe County Commission districts.

Is there something rotten in the Keys’ sewer and water system?

It is a legitimate question. Monroe County residents pay three times more for water and sewer services than their immediate neighbors in Miami-Dade County. In a one year period those extra dollars could add up to enough to pay for a thirteenth month of rent on an average one-bedroom unit in Key West.

FKAA was created by the Legislature in 1937. It’s not permitted to turn a profit – any excess revenue must roll back into the agency. And FKAA is raising more revenue every year. In 2000 it was collecting $26 million from sales of potable water to approximately 42,000 customers. Today, 2015, its customer base has only increased to about 47,000, but sales are now budgeted at over $47.5 million for potable water [with an additional $3.5 million in wastewater [sewage disposal] revenue].

This is the same water pumped directly from the ground at the same treatment plant in Florida City, named after the 26-year FKAA Board Chairman, Robert Dean.   The same water sent through the same pipes all  the way down to Key West. The most expensive water in Florida.

It’s easy to find criticism and suspicion about the top-heavy secretive organization.

One upset Citizen wrote to the State Attorney:

“Dean has been milking the system, playing politics too long… Why do certain politicians get homestead removed, pay fines & are removed […], yet others continue in their games and no one does anything about it, not the Governor, not the State Attorneys Office, not the Supervisor of Election, not the FKAA Board, not the Property Apprais[er]. What is going on…”

Another complaint was sent to State Attorney Dennis Ward:

“Can we all do this, live at our place of business in a different district than where we have our homestead? How has this been overlooked so long? Even the state attorneys turned a blind eye when they were sent a letter regarding Robert Dean District vs. Homestead. [Mark Kohl]”

Apparently, over the years, three successive State Attorneys: Mark Kohl, Dennis Ward, and Catherine Vogel were all urged to act on accusations that Robert Dean had misrepresented his legal residence.

It is unclear from the file whether Mark Kohl initiated any investigation. In 2009, Dennis Ward asked Chris Weber to investigate. Weber noted that Dean had a Homestead declared on his Key Haven home and he was obviously not convinced that Dean was living in the 300 SF efficiency on Bahama Street in Key West. A simple check of utility bills for the efficiency would have clearly established that no one was living there. Yet Weber was, apparently, overruled by then Supervisor of Elections, Harry L. Sawyer, who told Weber it was “common knowledge” that Dean was using the efficiency as his residence.

In 2001, Dean was not reappointed to the board. FKAA was going through a defining period. The Aqueduct was just getting jurisdiction over what would be hundreds of millions of dollars in grant funding to sewer the entire Florida Keys. However Governor Bush had chosen Elena Herrera for the Lower Keys District.

The next opening was the Key West district seat held by John Koenig. In 2004 Dean wrote to Governor Bush claiming that he had moved to Key West, he changed his voter registration address from Key Haven to 417 Bahama Street in Key West, and he applied for Koenig’s seat. In January 2005 he was appointed to the FKAA board to represent Key West. He was back in the game.

But last week, the issue of Dean’s legal status as the Key West representative on the FKAA Board resurfaced.

This time Chris Weber asked to visit the efficiency. He looked at the empty shelves, at Dean’s Key Haven address on his drivers license and a slew of other public documents. He got Dean to admit that he had likely only slept in the tiny apartment 6 times in the past six months and that, in fact, he primarily lives in Key Haven.

Dean claimed that in 2009 Harry Sawyer had found that he could legally use the Bahama Street efficiency to qualify as a voter in Key West elections. There are no documents establishing that Sawyer made any such determination and he was not questioned during the most recent investigation.

Last week when we interviewed Joyce Griffin, who was the assistant to Sawyer at the time, she said, “The only thing we did back then was ask Mr. Dean, ‘Do you live there?’ and he said yes he did, and that’s all we did.”

However, State Attorney Catherine Vogel took Dean’s claim about Sawyer at face value,

“The Supervisor of Elections gave the opinion that Mr. Dean was qualified. Mr. Dean has been relying on his analysis and has been voting. Consequently, up to now he has not known that he is an unqualified voter.”

There will be no criminal prosecution. Dean could have faced a charge of voter fraud, a third degree felony carrying a maximum 5-year prison sentence.

Catherine Vogel however did send a notice to Supervisor of Elections Joyce Griffin formally challenging Mr. Dean’s right to vote in Key West elections after she made a finding that he was improperly registered at the Bahama Street address.

Can Robert Dean continue to represent Key West on the FKAA Board? Having Mr. Dean release control of the Board would be the end of an era.

Robert Dean has guided FKAA through some of its most challenging times, installing a new water main and more recently multiple central sewage treatment and disposal systems. The Keys have been fitted with modern infrastructure and FKAA customers are furnished with award-winning potable water. Even during some of the most challenging situations, like after Hurricane Andrew, when the Florida City plant was without electricity for 28 days, water was still flowing clear and safe through the Keys.

Then there are the not so good things. In 1993 a Grand Jury was convened to investigate Dean’s decision to provide free water hook up to his friend Ron Keiter on Crane Boulevard on Sugarloaf Key [some 2000 feet of pipeline including over 1000 feet of 4” main that would have cost him $40,000]. He was also questioned on the decision to provide a highly discounted water mainline to an offshore island owned by the Spottswood family.

The Florida History Department at the Monroe County Library on Fleming Street has a copy of the tongue-lashing report that fell short of bringing criminal charges. There was no proof that money had changed hands in any of those backroom deals investigated by the Grand Jury.

The Grand Jury found that Dean had fired then FKAA Executive Director Steve McDaniel, who had squarely refused to bring free hookups to well-to-do customers [McDaniel, Dean claimed, had had an affair with a female FKAA employee, creating a “conflict of interest.”] McDaniel was replaced with Terry Dougherty who immediately brought 2000 feet of 4” water main to the Spottswoods’ island.

The FKAA Board is meeting at 10:00 am on September 25, 2015. Board member Cara Higgins wants the board to address the allegations that Mr. Dean has misrepresented his status as a Key West resident putting into question his eligibility for the Key West seat on the FKAA board of directors.

The FKAA board meeting is open to the public.

Issue 115 Acevedo FKAA for web

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CORRECTION: The original version of this article incorrectly stated that State Attorney Catherine Vogel had concluded that J Robert Dean may have been unlawfully voting in City of Key West elections since 1980.  The records provided show a switch to the Bahama Street address from the Key Haven address in 2004, 37 days prior to Mr. Dean’s January 2005 appointment to the FKAA District 3 (Key West) seat.

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The Blue Paper once again thanks Colby Fisher for his help with research for this article.

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See the State Attorneys documents here:

2015-SA-00189-A-K – Inv Report 2009 Inv Report Challenge Voter Residency in Florida – Redacted

2015-SA-00189-A-K – DL Supporting Documents – Redacted

2015-SA-00189-A-K – Property Appraiser Inv Reports 2011 and 2009 – Redacted

 

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26 thoughts on “State Attorney Challenges FKAA Chairman’s Right To Vote In Key West Elections

  1. And why is BOB Dean and his $100,000+ crew EXTORTING 3000+ Taxpayers In George Neugents voters district #2 to GIVE UP their Property Rights for installing Turd Griders on Private Property instead of putting them in the Utility Easements provided by Law and where the FKAA has placed their water pipes andmeters and Now are placing For the County the MANDATED sewer infrastructure. Was it to save the $4.8 MILLION to provide traffic bearing lids for those turd grinders like the ones that were provided for the TAXPAYERS who live on Grassy Key. Are the Taxpayers in Grassy Key more Privilrged Taxpayers than the Taxpayers in the Lower Keys?? Possibly They are. Possibly because They also live in the Corporate City of Marathon-the home of 2 Monroe County Comissioners Neugent And Rice(take care of OUR residents and Screw the Lower keys(as usual). Enough is Enough. However the FIX is in The MANDATE MUST be met. Just like Obie Wan said to Luke–Nowhere else will you find a hive of SCUM & VILENY.

  2. About that “award winning water”…..
    Yes, it’s hearsay coming from me, but FKAA employees in a position to know told me that the water that wins the taste tests is not what rides in the pipe line for about a week from Florida City, getting additions of chlorine as needed. It is water from the reverse osmosis plant that is then run through an additional carbon filter, they said. That is so in character, which is what makes it especially believable to me. That “pristine” water source that you hear Deputy Executive Director Kerry Shelby rave about in the FKAA radio ads is the same water that Miami-Dade drinks and is treated the same way. If it tastes any better to you here, maybe it’s the addition of ammonia or the depletion of chlorine along the way, which generates known carcinogenic by-products. The water quality tests that you see on the “customer confidence” glossy paper inserts in your water bill are done with freshly treated water, not Key West tap water, and are not always even from the same year. I have strong reason to believe that the current samples are from the reverse osmosis plant rather than the lime softening plant that provides nearly all the water from your faucet.
    The “customer confidence” blurb is mandated by DEP, but why does the FKAA brag about its water in radio and newspaper ads? Who are they competing with? What’s with their slogan “Tap water- the best drink in town”? It’s like a circus. It’s all an illusion, sheeple. Pay attention, know there is trickery and deceit, and don’t focus on the smoke screens.

    1. Thanks, Halloween, for another fine trick or treat comment; and, pray tell, what does FKAA, which has a monopoly on tap water, waste ratepayers’ money advertising it? Are they trying to convert people who don’t drink bottled water, instead of tap water? Or who drink cistern water instead of tap water.

  3. I don’t grok State Attorney Catherine Vogel’s logic that Dean didn’t know he was voting illegally, because he had the okay from Supervisor of Elections Harry Sawyer to vote in Key West. Dean knew he didn’t live in Key West, he knew he was not supposed to vote in Key West. Now, he has admitted he did not live in Key West, which he knew all along. I wonder if our friend, Citizen 101, will cuss us wolves out about today’s blue paper thrashing of Dean, now that he has himself admitted he did not, does not, live in Key West? I wonder if Dean is wishing Citizen 101 had held her peace; maybe he’s wondering if some people who read her ravings will wonder if she represents his fanclub? The Crane Blvd and Spottswood island reports certainly are juicy and in keeping with how some people get something other people don’t get. I wonder how the local Democratic Party is weathering this tempest? The Supervisor of Elections Office just now told me on the telephone that Robert Dean, Chairman of FKAA, is registered as a Democrat.

    1. Sloan,

      Dean’s voter registration changes from both March 4, 1999 and November 30, 2004 show him as a registered Republican. Is there another voter registration change that we aren’t aware of?

      As I wrote in another comment, he changed his party affiliation on March 4, 1999. Perhaps, he was a Democrat before that date?

      Colby

  4. Dean was registered to vote at his Key Haven address until just 37 days before he was appointed to the District 3 FKAA seat. He changed his voter registration address to 417 Bahama from 14 W Cypress on November 30, 2004. He was appointed to the FKAA District 3 seat on January 5, 2005. We are really expected to believe that is a coincidence?

    Dean and his lawyer have repeatedly stated that he has only voted in Key West elections. That is a blatant lie. There is no other way to put it.

    Furthermore, from 1986-2001 Dean was appointed to the FKAA Key Haven seat. Ex-Key West Mayor Kermit Lewin was appointed to the City of Key West seat. Why would he suddenly need to represent a different district when he claims that he has always maintained the same primary residency?

    You can see changes he made to his voter registration on pages 16 and 17 of the following pdf file. :

    https://thebluepaper.com/-/wp-content/uploads/2015-SA-00189-A-K-Property-Appraiser-Inv-Reports-2011-and-2009-Redacted.pdf

    On March 4, 1999, he changed his party affiliation, and on November 30, 2004, he changed his address to 417 Bahamas.

  5. Wow, ” Consequently, up to now, he (Bob Dean) has not known he is an unqualified voter”. Really? And you bought that? That’s the kind of thing I would expect to hear from a defense attorney, not the State Attorney. There will be no criminal prosecution. Why not? As Ms. Vogel said, Dean “may have been voting illegally in Key West since 1980.” And even though he’s been asked about his residence several times (at least), and he has obviously lied about it, it isn’t egregious enough to bring charges against him? I asked before and I’ll ask again, just who the hell is this guy and how has he managed to intimidate so many people in Key West?

    1. Do any of you recall the elections several years ago – It could have been 8-10 years I can not recall – but it came down to a tie vote and they drew straws out of a hat to select a winner! I am not kidding. Another political race about the same time was within ONE vote! You have to wonder if Bob Deans’ one vote changed those elections. And if it did, what about all the decisions and influence some elected official had that should probably not have been sitting on the dais in Key West. WHO REMEMBERS THOSE ELECTIONS AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT THAT!?!

  6. About that “award winning water”…..
    Yes, it’s hearsay coming from me, but FKAA employees in a position to know and have participated told me that the water that wins those taste tests is not what rides in the pipe line for about a week from Florida City, getting additions of chlorine as needed.They said it is water from the reverse osmosis plant that is then run through an additional charcoal filter.. That is so in character for FKAA, which is what makes it especially believable to me. That “pristine” water source that you hear Deputy Executive Director Kerry Shelby rave about in the FKAA radio ads is the same water that Miami-Dade drinks and is treated the same way. If it tastes any better to you here, maybe it’s the addition of ammonia or the depletion of chlorine along the way, which generates known carcinogenic by-products. The water quality tests that you see on the “customer confidence” glossy paper inserts in your water bill are done with freshly treated water, not Key West tap water, and are not always even from the same year. I have strong reason to believe that the current samples are from the reverse osmosis plant rather than the lime softening plant that provides nearly all the water from your faucet.
    The “customer confidence” blurb is mandated by DEP, but why does the FKAA brag about its water in radio and newspaper ads? Who are they competing with? It’s all for public image and most of it is BS. What’s with their slogan “Tap water- the best drink in town”? It’s like a circus. It’s all an illusion, sheeple. Pay attention, know there is trickery and deceit, and ignore the smoke screens and the smoke the blow up yonder..

  7. More shocking news! Such corruption! It appears this board is not interested in serving the public as much as they are there to serve their friends! And there it is the Spottswood name! Doesn’t this family have enough money to pay the fees that any of the rest of us would be charged to their little island without asking for favors 🙁 This is disgusting.
    This is not the end of this – it is only the beginning.
    EVERYONE NEEDS TO SHOW UP to this meeting FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 25th at 10am.
    They need to understand this is not going away.
    Is not too much to expect honesty, actual transparency, wise financial management, and for an agency to treat everyone equally?
    We CAN and WILL change this corrupt system.
    Stay on it Blue Paper and see you all on Sept 25th!

  8. You have to love KW. The average person goes to jail. An Uber Driver, “Dog Lady” etc.. Others find themselves a vegetable from a taser or dead like Charles Eimers.

    Yet the connected others get off. Kathy Smith gets a multi-month paid vacation and 5 day suspension, Police officers who lie under oath get 5 days suspension. I could continue this list for hours.

    Now Bob Dean gets a pass because “he didn’t know”? Last I looked the law is the law and ignorance is not a defense.

    For all of you “regular folk” out there ask yourself this question: “Is this how I will be treated when I break the law?”. Hell NO!, you will be dragged from your home and family in handcuffs. Only these well connected “bubbas” have a collection of get out of jail free cards. Kind of makes you wonder if “the mob” is running KW.

    1. I have heard it called the “conch mafia”. Maybe our state attorney will grow a pair and a conscience. A FKAA board meeting packed with a mob of irate Florida Keys residents might be fun, even if nothing comes from it. Might be even more fun, if someone brings a few buckets of tar and several pillow cases filled with feathers. Buzzard feathers best. And, to make our sister Citizen 101 feel appreciated, the Halloween citizen mobsters come dressed as wolves bearing sheep skins for the FKAA board members to stick onto to their tar and buzzard feathers. Arrrooooo!!!

  9. Someone needs to write a book on Key West. Perhaps it should be called “The Mafia of Key West” or “The Corruption in Paradise” or “Rollover Hemingway”.

    1. Bozewell, did you ever read “Bubba Justice in Key West, Pooping on the People in Paradise”? I heard after it was published and a few copies found their way into the county library system, the bubbas made the library get rid of those copies. http://www.amazon.com/Bubba-Justice-Key-West-Paradise/dp/1886225427.

      Meanwhile, I believe the blue paper is doing a pretty fair job writing a serial sequel to “Bubba Justice in Key West”.

    2. Interesting concept, Mafia. Funeral homes?? Instant Creamations?? We’ve all read about two in a coffin possibly in Chicago??? Didn’t Bob go to the U of Ill Navy Pier in the ’60’s??? I’m not suggesting anything. I lived in Chicago, went to U of Ill. Navy Pier in the ’60’s???

  10. I’d sure like to see this information sent to Gov. Scott and big market news media. This is an Election year and there’s nothing like a nice Scandal to spice up the Campaign Retoric. OBTW, mafia, KW, Na,no chance of that happening LOL

  11. Here is an editorial that I sent to the Citizen for publication tomorrow. They haven’t acknowledged its receipt so I doubt if they will print it, but this is the type of content that SHOULD be printed:

    It is time to set the record straight about J. Robert Dean’s voter registration history. Dean and his attorney, Robert Highsmith, have repeatedly stated that he has only voted in Key West elections. That is a outright lie. There is no other way to put it. Dean was registered to vote at his Key Haven address for decades before he was appointed to the District 3 FKAA seat. He changed his voter registration address from 14 W Cypress to 417 Bahama on November 30, 2004. That was only 37 days before he was appointed to the FKAA District 3 seat on January 5, 2005. Are we really expected to believe it was just a coincidence that he was registered to vote on Key Haven for decades, then he became nostalgic for his old home; he changed his voter registration to that location, and suddenly out of nowhere, he was appointed to represent that new location’s district?

    Perhaps, the best evidence that Dean is not being honest about his voter registration background can be found in his previous FKAA board membership. From 1986-2001, Dean was appointed to the FKAA District 1 seat that includes Key Haven. Ex-Key West Mayor Kermit Lewin was appointed for much of that period to the City of Key West District 3. The only thing that appears to have changed to facilitate Dean’s representation of two different Districts was the address on his voter registration.

    Dean’s willingness to change his voter registration to adapt to the political circumstances of the time extends beyond his 2004 change in voter registration address. When he was first appointed to the FKAA board in 1986, he was registered Democratic. That made sense, Bob Graham, the Florida Governor at the time, was Democratic. On March 4, 1999, at the age of 67 and when most senior citizens are concerned about social security and medicare, he changed his party affiliation to Republican. That also made sense, Jeb Bush, Florida’s newly elected Governor was Republican. If Dean were to re-enter state appointed politics under Bush, it would have to be as a Republican, and that is what he was when Bush reappointed Dean, a “Born Again” Republican, to the FKAA board.

    You can see changes he made to his voter registration on pages 16 and 17 of the State Attorney Office investigation report.

    As late as 2011, mortgage documents show Dean’s lawyer was Robert Feldman, the same person who is the FKAA legal counsel. Dean’s current lawyer is Robert Highsmith of the firm Feldman Koenig & Highsmith. Yes, Highsmith is a named partner in the same firm as Feldman. In addition, Kirk C Zuelch, the FKAA executive director also practices law at Feldman Koenig & Highsmith. No conflict of interest at all there whatsoever.

    The bottom line to all of this is that everyone knows Dean knew exactly what he was doing when he switched his voter address from District 1 to District 3. The difficulty is in proving that he knowingly did it, and that is the only reason he was not charged. Proving state of mind is next to impossible so I understand why State Attorney Vogel declined to prosecute…for now. Instead, she effectively put him on notice. He got away with it in the past, but he can no longer claim ignorance to the law, and she is watching. The ball is now in Supervisor of Elections Griffin’s court for her panel to decide where Dean lives for voting purposes. We can only hope that they have the integrity to determine their answer based upon the facts and not upon Dean’s bubba connections.

  12. Colby – “The bottom line to all of this is that everyone knows Dean knew exactly what he was doing when he switched his voter address from District 1 to District 3. The difficulty is in proving that he knowingly did it, and that is the only reason he was not charged. Proving state of mind is next to impossible” –

    This ex-practicing lawyer has no trouble looking at what appear to be undisputed facts and, assuming the facts are as reported, concluding there is no doubt Dean knew what he was doing; he established a pattern, which proceeded; he enlisted the help of others, who joined him in the pattern (conspiracy), one of whom, Robert Highsmith, now is a member of our school board, yes? After Highsmith filed to run for school board, a heard a number of reports from Key West people unfavorable to Highsmith, then I heard reports praising him. The praisers won out in that school board seat election.

    If I were State Attorney Vogel, looking at this case, as it has been reported in the blue paper, I would call a grand jury to indict the lot of them: Dean, Feldman, Zuelch and Highsmith, and Harry Sawyer, the previous Supervisor of Elections, who was reported as having said everyone knew Dean lived in Key West, so that’s where he should vote, or something to that effect.

    Saying this another way, Colby, it is permitted for juries to determine from what someone does, what someone was thinking when it was done. In this case, as you have reported, there is premeditated calculation, for years. That is intent a jury can find regardless of what Dean might say to the contrary. If it were left just to the accused to say what was the accused’s intent, very few criminals would be convicted.

    1. After submitting my comment to you, Colby, I called someone who tends to know stuff, for his comments, he will be known as Deep Throat.

      He said he wants to see a Florida statute which defines definition of living somewhere, because there are many people who live somewhere else, who have a 2nd home in Key West, and don’t really live here but vote here – he cited Truman Annex. I said that would not surprise me to be the case, and if it is, that should be dealt with.

      I said I imagine many people who live in Key Haven vote in Key West. Deep Throat said, but they work in Key West, like Bob Dean does. I said, that is not living somewhere, that is working somewhere and living somewhere else. Lots of people work in Key West, but do not vote there because they live up US 1 on one of the other keys.

      I said, I wonder if Ed Swift, who lives on Key Haven, but works in Key West, votes in Key West elections? If so, he, should be prosecuted. I said I’d had this very conversation with Naja about a week ago, about outing people who live in Key Haven, but vote in Key West city elections. Naja said she was after the big fish, she did not want to go after little people. I replied, anyone living in Key Haven, who votes in Key West city elections, should be gone after. Deep Thoat agreed.

      Then Deep Throat said people going after Bob Dean should be real careful about who their savior is. Cara Higgins is David Paul Horan’s law partner. Horan is political. He ousted Jennifer Hulse from being the Chamber of Commerce’s lawyer. He has his law partner on the FKAA board, there is a vacant FKAA board seat, due to another board member having moved to the Florida west coast, and it took outside pressure, it seemed, but perhaps it came from Higgins, for the local mullet wrappers to get that seat vacated. If Dean’s seat is vacated, who will take his place?

      Deep Thoat said I’m always saying Jim Hendrick and Pritam Singh make commotions they want the people to look at, instead of at what Hendrick and Singh don’t want the people to look at. Are Higgins and Horan doing the same thing with FKAA’s board?

      Deep Thoat said something similar might be going on with the local hospital, on which board Higgins sits. Will the Horan law firm end up representing the hospital?

      Deep Throat said Horan and Higgins have been having at local attorney Bart Smith, who got the Venture Out account away from the Horan law firm. I said, perhaps Venture Out felt more comfy with Bart, whose parents run the golf course and the sewer plant on Stock Island, while Horan’s law partner Higgins sits on the FKAA board, which will operate Cudjoe Regional Sewer District.

      I said, bottom line question: Will a new FKAA board end up switching to the Horan law firm, using all of this the blue paper is hammering as justification? Will that be substituting one devil for another devil?

      Correct, Deep Throat said. Be careful who your savior is.

      I told Deep Throat I would drop the gist his and my conversation into a comment under this Bob Dean blue paper article.

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