Is Taxi Deregulation the Answer?
With 138 comments to Blue Paper Uber articles, the debate about deregulating the taxicab industry is heating up in Key West.
The stakes are high: The city-imposed cap on taxicab licenses has given them exceptional value. The taxicab company that operates Five Sixes and Maxi Taxi, for example, owns 43 of the 56 regular taxicab licenses. (There are 72 cab licenses in all at this time, including 8 independent and 8 ADA licenses.) At an estimated value of $200,000 per license, if the City decided to lift the cap and allow others to freely enter the market, that $9 million in transferable permits could become pretty much worthless.
The dilemma is how to reconcile the growing public support for cheaper and faster “ride-share” services like Uberx and Lyft with the City’s inclination to hold onto a regulatory system that has provided a proven and relatively trouble-free taxicab system for decades.
See also: KEY WEST JAILS UBER DRIVER
and GRINDING UBER INTO THE DIRT?
Last week Martin Maness, 51, was the first Key West Uber driver to spend a night in jail for the crime of ‘working without a license’. The catch-22 being that, under existing regulations, no new independent taxi driver can obtain a mandatory Vehicle For Hire license from the City.
“Deregulation is the solution,” Commissioner Rossi wrote back in response to an email questionnaire from The Blue Paper. Mayor Cates was more circumspect, stating he was working with the City Attorney to study the issues and was drafting an amendment to City Code that he would bring forward at an upcoming Commission meeting. Local attorney, Sam Kaufman, who is running for the District 2 seat being vacated by Commissioner Rossi, promised a full interview next week but added, “And why not also ask: Are you in favor of arresting Uber drivers who violate the law? And perhaps, do you think this issue might rise to the level of an anti-trust case similar to the Ducks case. Why or why not?”
In a lawsuit filed on May 9, 2015, local attorney Richard Klitenick, owner of ADA Twenty Four Hours Plus, LLC, claims that portions of the City’s Vehicle For Hire licensing scheme are designed to stifle competition and violate antitrust laws, such as the 1890 Sherman Antitust Act.
In essence, the City has created an ‘exclusive club’ of taxicab license holders. No new members are admitted (unless they convince someone to sell out) they don’t have much to fear in the way of competition from outsiders who, (as we saw this week) promptly find themselves locked up in the county jail.]
Is it legal? Can cities prohibit free enterprise and competition?
According to legal pleadings filed in the ADA case, everything seems to hinge on the interpretation of a 1927 Florida Law. It does specifically authorize the City of Key West to regulate taxi services. The question, however, according to the U.S. Supreme Court, is whether the legislature expected the regulations to be used to limit competition or whether the intent was simply to allow regulation of business practices. In the former case, the City would be immune from antitrust liability. That question is now before Judge Mark Jones.
But for Key Westers, the question is not only whether the City has a legal right to drive Uber and other ride-share outfits out of town, but whether it should. In many areas, including Washington DC, policymakers have openly accepted companies such as Uber and Lyft onto their streets while others are still fighting tooth and nail. Common to all cities: Existing taxicab business owners want Uber and the like … gone. They claim lifting the permit cap and opening the industry to competition would be a huge mistake leading to higher prices, traffic congestion, parking problems, poor service, and unsafe conditions for consumers. A nightmare. “Careful what you wish for,” they caution.
Back in 1984, the Federal Trade Commission, which enforces federal antitrust laws, noted in a report entitled, An Economic Analysis of Taxicab Regulation: “The principal conclusion of this report is that…. Restriction on the total number of firms and vehicles and on minimum fares wastes resources and imposes a disproportionate burden on low-income people. A number of cities have achieved favorable results by deregulating.”
In fact, one of those cities was Key West, which in 1985, in a move led by then Commissioner Emma Cates, mother of current Mayor Craig Cates, partially deregulated the taxicab industry by lifting the cap on the number of permits. The cap was subsequently reinstated in 1992.
Also in 1984 The FTC sued the cities of New Orleans and Minneapolis, charging both with creating unfair competition by combining with taxicab operators to impose regulations that limited the number of taxicab licenses, increased fares, and eliminated competition in violation of the federal antitrust laws.
More recently, in 2013, specifically addressing a proposal to allow Uber to work inside Washington DC, the FTC issued the following opinion: “Consumers benefit from competition between traditional and new products and services, and from new methods of delivering services. Regulations therefore need to be reviewed and revised periodically to facilitate and encourage the emergence of new forms of competition.”
While some cities continue to fight off the “Uber attack”, and [in our case] even send Uber drivers to spend a night in a cold cell, it seems that each day a new City decides to integrate with the new ride-share services. Just yesterday Los Angeles Airport became the largest airport in the country to announce they would welcome the ride-share companies. Last January the Governor of Arizona, Doug Ducey, fired the head of the state regulatory agency that was performing sting operations in an attempt to shut down Uber and Lyft and the state legislature subsequently enacted statutes specifically protecting ride-share companies.
The FTC responded favorably to the City of Anchorage’s 2013 proposal to phase in integration and deregulation, a concept that could be of interest to Key West. The number of licenses in Anchorage is also limited by regulation and permits are transferred for as much as $150,000. The Anchorage deregulation proposal includes a gradual rise in the number of licenses by up to ten permits a year. However, the new licenses would not be transferable. The number of licenses would increase steadily and “the ability to transfer taxicab permits would expire altogether by the end of 2022, and there would be no limits on the number of taxicabs after that time.” The hope is that by 2022 the owners of old transferable licenses would have received significant economic benefit from the use of those licenses, enough to compensate for the loss of value, and that drivers will have had an opportunity to grow into entrepreneurs.
As the argument goes: Developing a more affordable and quicker response taxicab system could result in considerably enlarging the pool of customers to include not only tourists, but more locals, low income as well as retirees.
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) produced a study of policy issues involving regulation of taxi services with the participation of 19 democratic countries around the globe including the United States. The 2007 report concluded,
“Restrictions on entry to the taxi industry constitute an unjustified restriction on competition. … Substantial evidence suggests that restrictive approaches to taxi licensing taken in many countries, together with resulting upward price pressures, is progressively leading consumers to substitute away from the taxi industry. Absent a strong theoretical justification for restricting taxi numbers, this substitution is economically distorting and will lead to important welfare losses.”
“While a number of theoretical arguments based on externalities (notably pollution and congestion) and productivity have been advanced to justify the imposition of supply restrictions, each of these rationales is strongly contested. In sum, the economics literature provides little support on theoretical grounds for supply restrictions.”
Stay tuned…
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$150,00 – $200,000 for a license is ridiculous. This is another example of greed and greed will get you in trouble in the end, one way or another.
Naja & Arnaud,
You have developed and covered this ‘hot topic’ in a deliberative and detailed manner. Unraveling this conflict via ‘both sides of the story’ has done much to frame this issue clearly and impartially for your readers.
Sincerely appreciate the balanced and precise writing utilized in describing this topic. Extraordinary work. Thank you.
Quack Quack QUACK!!!!! Deja vous all over again.
I second what John said. Great reporting! I was on the fence on this issue and talked with local cabbies and was still unsure where I stood, but then I saw a video by Russell Brand that tipped me over the edge. He’s a bit hyper, like too many cafe con leches, but I thought I should share it here. Draw your own conclusions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgAsUQXYAA
In short to answer the question of the article “Is Taxi Deregulation the Answer?” The answer is a 100% yes.
This. Dismantle the Taxi Cartel.
It is, imo, absurd to suggest that allowing competition from Uber or Lyft will lead to higher prices. Supply and demand dictates the opposite. I assume the intent of the law that allows the city to regulate cabs is to protect citizens from gouging and I am all for regulation of rates to protect passengers … but I am not in favor of protecting monopolies.
Well said. Uber has been proven over and over again with wild success all of the world.
MJ, check this out.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgAsUQXYAA
Shades o f The Duck Tour debacle .
I encourage the readers to complain to the city’s liability insurance provider. Complain to their loss prevention officer and tell them that our city maybe setting us up for another multi million dollar payout-loss. If case law is on Uber’s side I can assure you that the city will enact reform.
Readers, First I must disclose that I have made my living in KW for 30 years driving a taxi. This competiton-free enterprise mantra is always the excuse to to do something like this. You cannot compare the Duck tour thing to a taxi serivce. A taxi service is akin to being a public utility, it is a necessary function, like electricity and water, in a tourist town like KW. It must be regulated. A free for all in this business would not make service better nor cheaper … in the long run. You cannot simply flood the streets with vehicles for hire without some regulation. Anyone who falls for this free enterprise stuff in this case is asking to be sorry for what they wish for.
Jerome,
You are totally wrong and your claims go against simple laws of economics.
I understand, you worked for 30 years driving a taxi and now you feel threatened. I would too. But imagine if horse and buggies manufacturers had lobbied government for licenses… What about the milk man? The Ice man. Or switchboard operators.
How long should society stay in the dark ages so that people can make monopoly profits by having a special license for something so easy as driving people around?
The Libertarian Party of the FL Keys 100% supports total deregulation of all taxis, and for that matter, most everything.
-Mike Kane
Chair – LP Florida Keys
Excellent post.
Ditto. Right on!.
We have Uber in my city…and it’s fantastic. Friendly drivers, on time arrivals, non-vomit smelling cars, low prices, excellent support.
Yeah, We got what we wished for and are very thankful for it.
Your reasoning is biased.Taxi service is not a utility service. What is different about
about furniture taxi service?
One more thing: Now, maybe the public might not be satisfied with how the industry is regulated, but that is a different question. The regulation must exist. As for the prices in KW and the service … on the former, yes, prices are high, but not out of line with the cost of living here. Taxis are a luxury item, not a bus or trolley. As for the latter, you cannot find better taxi service anywhere. Nothing is perfect, in any undertaking in life, but if you think taxi service is not good here … you don’t know taxis.
Listen.
The US Constitution does not protect Taxi Cartels from competition.
Fact is that the Taxi Cartel sees Uber as a direct threat leading to potential profit loss and devaluation of their $200,000 licenses.
Guess what: too bad, taxi cartel. It is only a matter of time before Uber will be snatching up your fares. My advice is to find ways to adapt just like a real, unprotected, business would or close the doors.
Jerrome, Naja and Arnaud have called Uber in this article, and before, “ride share”. Looks to me Uber is a taxi company using different, more high tech methods to book cabs and for the cabs to be paid. I read, maybe in the Key West Citizen this week, where Uber is providing legal defense counsel for one of its drivers in Key West. That sound’s like something a taxi company would do for one of its drivers the city had arrested and taken off the streets of Key West. I say that as a lawyer, and as a lay person. I think there are too many taxis, and trolleys, and conch trains, and pedicabs in Key West already, and I think that because I have lived here a long time, off and on, and I have driven city streets in a car and on my bicycle, mostly on the bicycle, and I see the awful motor vehicle congestion. Atcandidates forums, when I ran for mayor a few times, we got questions about what we can be done about traffic congestions, and the same was raised at city commission meetings about traffic congestion and issuing more taxi and other private carrier licenses. I am pretty sure, legally, a city has the right to limit carrier licenses for the public safety and welfare, and that’s been the argument I heard made at city commission meetings. I have no problem with Uber, don’t know the other company, Lyft – it’s similar to Uber? It is amusing, though, to watch this fracas and some of the arguments being made, pro and con. I don’t know what New York City is like today, but there was a time when taxi medallions were limited and super pricey, and were traded like rare commodities. Is that still so?
You might find this amusing, Jerome, or not., During the 2014 mayor’s race, at the Chamber of Commerce candidate forum in Casa Marina, I, one of the 3 candidates, was asked what I think should be done about traffic congestion in Key West? I asked, “Do you want my political answer, or my real answer?” The moderator said, “Your real answer.” I said there is nothing that can be done about traffic congestion in Key West; your city commissions gave the city to developers, the city is way overbuilt, traffic congestion is the result. I paused, said, however, if half the people living here moved to the mainland, that would solve the traffic congestion problem. I may also have said, if everyone here walked or rode bicycles like I do, that also would solve the traffic congestion. Mayor Cates and Margaret Romero’s answers were the political variety.
Sloan, Let me make one thing clear: I have no problem with someone coming up with a new way of doing taxi service, using the latest in technology … but they must have a permit for their vehicles. Flooding the streets with anyone who wants to charge for a ride is simply asking for big trouble. It will, in the long run, destroy the proper functioning of this industry.
From what I read in the Key West Citizen today, Uber bailed out of Key West and a city on the Florida Atlantic seaboard, instead of fighting for “free trade”. Does anyone know if Uber, or a similar company, has litigated this in a state or federal court? If so, how’d that turn out? I read that Uber offered legal counsel to one of its KW drivers, who got arrested. Maybe that lawyer will challenge the city ordinance as violating anti-monopoly laws? But then, who is the lawyer really working for: Uber or the former Uber driver? If the former Uber driver wants to push the anti-trust defense, will Uber go along with that? If not, will the lawyer bow to Uber? Or use that defense? Such a case could take quite a while to run its course, through an appeal to a local circuit court, then an appeal to the 3rd District Court of Appeals, then to the Florida Supreme Court. Or, the lawyer could go into federal court and ask for an injunction, because the city ordinance violates US AntiTrust and Florida Anti-Trust laws. Theoretically.
The issue herein is a matter of licensing. Should cab drivers be licensed or should corporations be licensed What’s the difference? One can be arrrested the other can’t!
Permit drivers, not conveyances and corporations. Long live individualism and personhood!
Competition does a much more effective job than government at protecting consumers and should not interfere with free markets competition. The market will decide the winners and losers. If you want limited choice, move to Cuba. If it weren’t for competition driving costs down and improving products and services we wouldn’t have the luxury of personal computers etc. Evolve or get out of the way.
In Cuba they have rooms to rent in many private homes, which the owners greatly profit from. There are lots and lots of taxis about, public and privately owned. Also there are plenty of private restaurants, some of higher quality and some that are cheap in home cafe’s. Do you might want to do your homework, especially when you’re vindictively addressing long time residents of this small isolated island, how we have democratically decide to regulate business.
The heart of the matter here is the regulation of labor and machines and bloodsuckers.
Maybe some of the Taxi cab drivers would be better suited to switch to Uber where at the beginning of the day they aren’t faced with a deficit in the amount they have to pay to the taxi company. Taxi’s and Uber can coexcist together in Kew West just like they do in other parts of the country. It’s a total supply and demand situation.
Personally when I view opinions on any business first I look at the source and education level and success of them. Nothing personal but if the best I managed to do with 30 years of my life was to drive a cab then something is very wrong. I follow winners.
The city if smart they will back off of this challenge and be dam luck if not found paying out millions.
I very much so understand fighting to keep a license worth $200,000 a piece. This is sort of a stock and the value might start dropping fast with the litigation that has begun. Would anyone in right mind pay $200,000 today for a license ? Bet we start seeing them selling for $150 k or even less shortly. If forced to deregulate they might not be worth 1 k. Could be a hell of a loss.
Now if Uber does not prove to be cheaper and better then they will go away fast. Fact is if I owned something worth $200 k then I want a good return on my money. Personally all of my investments make a profit of 20% or greater or I sell them off. This would mean 40 k a year. Roughly $800 a week.
We are in Key West often and what we are seeing is a town about to fail. Workers are leaving because the pay is crazy for the cost of living. Seen plenty of HELP WANTED signs in windows.
I feel sorry for anyone needing to work 2 or 3 jobs to live in KW.
You lack affordable housing and tear down the little you have.
If you think Uber will not fight this in court then think again because it’s future is at stake. Actually this subject has put my mind in gear to create something better than Uber. It would be a membership based car service and members /users would actually own part of the cars used and drivers would be employees in the since of Chaufers
and no license required.
Taxi business just might be over or need major change.
A license should never be able to be sold or transferred.
I find this remark offensive from JiminKeyWEst: Personally when I view opinions on any business first I look at the source and education level and success of them. Nothing personal but if the best I managed to do with 30 years of my life was to drive a cab then something is very wrong. I follow winners.
{I am college educated. My background is in transportation and political economics. I have been in the moving business for 34 years. And I can still chew and wald at the same time. I am probably the top scholar in the state of Florida regarding business regulatory environments and anti trust laws. I have testified on these matters in Tallahassee. The moving businesses and taxi cab companies in South Florida are mafia run. The biggest issue in these matters are regarding liability and casualty concers. Carriage laws, bailmetment laws, freedom of movemnt, free speech laws are all in play here. I have always said that one can determine what kind of economy is being promoted by how men and machine are regulated. I am in effect a furniture taxi, I run a local delivery service, and these laws are under federal protection. In a nutshell, it seem to me the City of Key West is in violation of the state and federal anti trust laws, mainly because of the ownership of the monopoly intersests generally precludes real competition outside of itself.
Uber has found and exposed all of the problems with Taxi cab companies all over the world:
1) dispatchers are rude
2) cabs show up at some point, sometimes never
3) cabs are dirty and smell like vomit
4) cab drivers hate credit cards
5) got a problem with the driver or ride? Deal with it.
There’s more, but you get the idea.
Key West citizens are for Uber, the only people against it are cabbies and the owners for obvious reasons. Problem is that small group isn’t above the Constitution and it will prevail.
Neoflex…..the newsmedia has found that some Uber drivers run over children, sexually assault and / or rape their customers. Is it fair to paint all with the same brush ?
All of the regulation in the world won’t stop monsters from committing heinous acts whether they driver for Uber or a cab company. I’m sure this guy was licensed and permitted to drive unsuspecting females around too:
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Cab-Driver-Arrested-for-Sexual-Battery-of-Passenger-Fort-Lauderdale-Police-283966841.html
Take away: claiming riders are unsafe in Uber cars is a very weak and pathetic defense.
Commissioner Rossi has said to me himself that he is for deregulation. OTOH he also stated that he was against the addition of new eight ADA cabs because the streets were already too crowded with taxis. I have to wonder as a successful bar owner, does he support a deregulation of liquor licenses, which there are a limited amount and have inflated their worth into the the six figure level?… Doubtful.
Some of the arguments here seem to be about the question of free enterprise and allowing purely market dictates. Some even claim, not to do so, is somehow unconstitutional. I’d imagine if that was the case, we’d have seen this before the SCOTUS a long time ago. Is unregulated free enterprise an inalienable right, or do municipalities have the right to temper and regulate industries? This is a small, densely populated island, more than a hundred miles in the middle of the ocean. There are many businesses here that are regulated, accommodations, food service, liquor sales, strip clubs, even commercial operations in residential areas. If we allow or force deregulation (and allowing Uber to operate is NOT deregulation) then why not all those other industries? Every third home a B&B serving food and alcohol, convenience stores on every block and at times, hundreds of livery vehicles on our roads. We could commercialize vast swaths of our tiny island in the name of unfettered capitalism, racing our way down to produce the greatest goods and services for the lowest prices. Because apparently those searching for rock bottom prices are the sort of tourists and residents we should cater to. Quality of life be damned! I’m sure all those property owners that spent seven figures on their six figure second or third homes would embrace it all with glee….
Mandy wrote a nice promotional piece on TaxiASAP in today’s Citizen. The entire piece read like a desperate plea for people to choose this infant application over Uber(which, Mandy never actually named the popular , successful ride-sharing Uber or Lyft)
This is the best part: “…cab companies cannot prohibit their drivers from using the app, as they are independent contractors, but the companies can discourage the app’s usage.”
Boy, that is really interesting. How can it possibly be that it’s OK for cabbies to work as independent contractors but other people(Uber drivers) cannot?
Fogarty and the Cartel are desperate hypocrites.
Neo…cabbies have been independent contractors for a very long time. Uber drivers…are not licensed, insured…had real background checks, or had physicals. Amazed you can not see the difference.
The State has already done the hard work of determining whether or not the driver is safe by issuing a driver’s license. They are insured, see Uber’s insurance information webpage. The background check is the same one cabbies get.
The reality is there is no difference. You’re just grasping at any defense you can to justify why Uber drivers are a bad idea.
If cabbies can operate as ICs, then Uber drivers should be included as well.
For what it’s worth, about 10 years ago my father drove for 5-6s almost immediately after serving his local jail sentence. So, don’t try to convince me that all of the cabbies are squeaky clean.
Of course they are licensed and insuredmbut not twice!
Because Uber drivers do not have livery licenses. There are 47 for sale at this moment, why don’t they just buy them? Because they are expensive, just like the cost of opening a bar, restaurant our hotel. We who live on this 4.2 sq mile island a hundred miles out to sea don’t want continued growth of rampant commercialization, especially if it is going to exasperate the income disparity for the working people in this very expensive city.
I am a little surprised to read so many comments from advocates who claim that an unfettered “Free Market” will solve everything. Maybe Scott Walker will carry Key West.
Elliot, Good to hear from you. You are right on here. This kind of market based propaganda is the crassest form of political propaganda and it is so easy to make people fall for it. Not every kind of enterprise is suited for unhindered, unfettered market competition and taxi service is one of these things. I am now beginning to get this whole Uber thing, especially since I have found out that Goldman-Sachs has something to do with it. What we have here is another attempt to deregulate an industry by the usual suspects attempting to run the global economy. The same old supply side garbage meant to make global corporatism our masters. I ask people to understand that this is the largest form of corporate omnipotence trying to impose this, not some little guy bucking some local big shots.
I am very curious on what businesses are regulated, what licences are required and how much those licenses cost in order to do business in KW. It almost seems like the city government operates like some sort of mafia and the Key West goon squad police department does whatever they want to make everyone tow the line.
In most places operating without a license would result in just an order to appear in court and then a fine or jail as needed. To actually arrest this driver and jail him was very much beyond reasonable justification. And it just might end up costing KW thousands. Lee is a puppet and they pulled his strings to make this arrest.
It was advertised beforehand…he admitted he knew he would be arrested if caught…and would gladly do it again. Takes a special kinda idiot for that.
Actually it was the drivers and the taxi company owners, that in tandem, lobbied the city to do its job of enforcing its ordinances. We are hard working, professional citizens of our city, not puppet masters. If the people of our city wish to change the system, then they should do so in the legal democratic manner that is easily available to them, but this is about a very wealthy outside multinational corporation trying to sharp elbow it’s way into every livery market in the world!
So are we to believe 56 cabs are enough to handle events such as Fantasy Fest ? That is a hell of a lot of people to get back to where they stay at 2 AM, Very little question of the percentage that been drinking and will be driving the car they parked on Duval .
The very fact that a license would be worth $200 k indicates it must be a profitable business. And with only 2 having about 80 % of the licenses what is really left to buy ?
This smells like more corruption in KW.
The number of rides needed is at question and for other than huge events are being handled by only 56 taxi’s , or are they ? KW is inviting tourists to drink and drive. Look at the number of cars parked on Duval alone in the evening. Most are likely over the legal limit but will attempt to drive because of costly rides and limited taxi’s. KW wants to enjoy the parking fees.
If the license was at a reasonable cost and available I am sure any wishing to drive for Uber would buy one. As to how profitable it would be only time will tell. But one thing is a fact and that is cab drivers would get hurt with fewer customers. At some point they would not be willing to pay out $175 a day because they might end up making near nothing. A Uber driver would not need to stay busy all day and night because they drive only when needed.
You might not like it but supply and demand works in all industries. Take a look at your hotel / mote l/ BB rates. Many rooms cost over double on select nights. That is because the supply is low for the demand. KW has very costly housing for the workers yet the pay is very low. Wonder why help is hard to find. Will be interesting seeing this in court and to what level it must go to. To the drivers you need not worry about your future because supply and demand will bail your ass out too. When drivers refuse to pay $175 a day then they have empty cabs.
Jerome I do hope you will manage to continue doing what you do for a living but you best be ready for some tough times. If that is your only income then you might be needing Uber.
What many don’t see is that the section 8 housing is the only way many can live. In short tax payers pick up the bill for low wages.
We’ve updated the article above to clarify that the total number of taxicab licenses is 72 at this time. The code caps fleet licenses at 56, independent licenses at 8, and last year the Commission added a category of new licenses called ADA licenses capable of servicing wheelchair bound clients. There are 8 such licenses bringing the total number of licenses at this time to 72.
Yellow Cab in Ft. Lauderdale was charging medicare and medicare $43.00 to run some up to the store to buy cigs . Someone was getting reamed.
There are 47 of the 72 licenses for sale at this moment.
Taxis are a utility, hence prices are regulated, just as the number of livery licences are. This is done so the streets are not flooded with cabs and the customers are not gouged when it is busy, and divers can make a fair living wage.
You stated “A Uber driver would not need to stay busy all day and night because they drive only when needed.”
Cabs are needed almost continuously 18-20+ hours a day on this busy island and many utilize large vans in order to better serve the high capacity of passenger traffic on this crowded island. Also almost every new town hotel offers inclusive shuttle services to old town and even the airport in large shuttle buses.
Taxis are conveyances not utlities. Geez!
Not to worry, we’ll ALL be obsolete soon enough…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_(company)
Uber CEO Travis Kalanick has spoken about his desire to eventually move to using self-driving cars for Uber vehicles.[143] In February 2015, Uber announced a collaboration with Carnegie Mellon University on research into automotive safety and self-driving cars.[144] By May 2015 the company had hired a large number of CMU researchers from the vehicle autonomy department, to work at Uber’s Advanced Technologies Center in Pittsburgh.[145] Uber is testing vehicles with extra sensors and hardware, as part of their research efforts regarding mapping, safety and autonomy systems.[143]
KW would be a perfect place to test them LOL. With the high number of J walkers and bicycles that disregard laws they would have a hell of a test.
And yes we all will be obsolete. That is all part of techknowlodgy.
The need for cabs is still real but they need to keep up with the times.
Jimmy, Your ignorance with regard to how the taxi business works in KW (or anywhere else, I suppose) is beyond blood letting as a cure, flat planets, and such. I simply do not have the strength to respond to such mouth flappery.
A degree in physics isn’t needed to understand the taxi business. Seems pretty “common sense” for what the Taxi Cartel and the Cabbies are fighting for: their jobs, profits, and their $9,000,000 permits.
A lot at stake indeed. Doesn’t make it OK to force the City to provide protection for any of that.
Instead we should let a $40 BILLION multinational corporation tell us how to business in OUR city?! My money is on that you are their troll…
I am truly amazed at some of the Uber coverage. Uber claims to be for free enterprise, the little guy….and I guess…the American way of life. What a load of crap. They are part of the famous 1%. They brag that they are the best funded darling of wall street. They are based in California. As far as I know….all the different cab company owners live in Key West. They each built their companies with sweat, equity, and financial risk. We decry mega corps that show up in Key West, putting local owners out of business….at least Walmart follows the law…unlike Uber. Secondly….the little guys are myself and fellow cab drivers…follow the rules…get our background checks, licenses, physical…and we are bonded, in the event of an accident. Along comes a guy with maybe a checkered past…or can’t pass the physical, or can’t get commercial insurance. He or she may have no clue about the city streets……be able to make recommendations for dinner, hotels, fishing…etc. We cab drivers live in this community….many for over 20 years. In conclusion…I do not understand how Uber somehow became the victim…sticking up for the ” little guy” If people believe this…they deserve what they get.
That doesn’t mean cabbies or taxi company owners are entitled to forever keep the City in a choke-hold when a new transportation options comes to town.
Choke-hold? New transportation options? Even Uber claims that they are not in the transportation industry, just a new tech dispatch system.
The people’s representatives serve the community here, they are quite accessible, able, responsive and not all oppose Uber. If the people wish to change the rules after careful debate and deliberation about how it effects service, value for money, reliability, environmental impact, including our quality of life, then they can and should do so. THAT is the American way!
You assume far too much. I am very much in support of background check and the health of the driver and bonding. That is what your licensing department is hired to do. And many can easily pass the requirements.
You also assume they are new to KW and know nothing about it. KW is far from a complicated city to drive in. It is not Atlanta.
Ever hear about Sygic ? They can give great details in driving or walking and even amount of time. So spare us the skill level needed for KW.
All they need is a ride if they don’t care to walk far. They might have been born and raised in KW and simply want to earn a better paycheck than most get. They are the Little guy not you.
Uber became a victim when you arrested the man. Sure Uber makes part of the profit and guess what , your boss makes a far bigger one off of drivers. Your cab company took a risk and that is part of the business world. Can you really justify paying $175 a day to be able to work ? The reason your boss charges that amount is so he makes a profit for his $200 k plus car investment. If that was not required then you would pay far less too. Is a reason why your a driver and not an owner.
Jim, you might want to put your money where you mouth is and come drive. Many of your statements have shown a level of ignorance. For example, Uber takes 20% of the gross take, leaving the driver to pay for the gas, car and maintenance, and without providing proper commercial insurance during all operations. From what I can figure the owners only take about 10% on average of my gross earnings. THAT is about $2 a ride for an average $20 ride including tip.
Cool. Sounds like it’s mostly all profit once your daily lease fee is covered. Good job, sir.
Does Uber pay any local taxes or state taxes on money made ?
We know they don’t pay airport fees like we do…which is why uber has to sneak over near the airport…and tell their customers they have to be off airport property. Jim..if you think we cabbies are not the little guy…..dunno who is.
Jerome is now 70 or very near it and this is all he can do for a living so yes he is fighting for his job. He just keeps saying that I do not understand the taxi business when in reality it is him who does not see the drivers being used by rich business owners that own a license. Please educate us all in this highly skilled business. When you get too old to be insured to drive then what ?
Nothing complicated about dispatch send a car they own with a paid driver to pick someone up at point A and drop them off at point B. He is and should be concerned about his future. Limiting the number of cabs just keeps the price up. Does not make anyone safer. Another 20 or so cars on Duval will not hurt a dam thing and demand will determine how many are on the road. I very much so understand the business world and me and my wife have owned a few and still do. I work about 5 hours a week and can afford to visit KW or any other town we wish as often as we like. Have no issue with the cost of a cab when in KW as that seldom even reaches $20 a day. No complaint so far with getting fast service. And yes we tip. My issue begins when your fine city enters into corruption. You had a good thing going but the smart phones are going to be a part of the future and so is Uber.
Yes have a license to certify that the car is safe , insured and most of all driven by a healthy , alert and licensed driver. That can be done for reasonable amount and perhaps a regular visit to a doctor to keep unsafe drivers out of cabs.
What is really going to be tested here is the law KW has to defeat competition. It is a monopoly and price fixing. The city is not the one at risk of a estimated 9 mil it is the license holder. Now let’s sit back and watch the show because the Uber driver is going to court not the taxi companies. Best move they can make is deregulate the business and drop the charges in hopes of no law suit by the driver. It required them to first arrest a Uber driver for this to be heard in court.
So if OUR city. JimNOTinKeyWest, is forced by a court ruling to no longer cap the amount of livery licences, who’s to say that the new issues won’t be sold for the market value of $200+K?
If unlimited then the value would be a justifiable amount the city can charge short of being sued in court.
The value of anything is determined by willing and able buyers.
Thanks to to the Blue Paper the degree of corruption in KW has been exposed to the world.
What amazes me is the number of drivers that defends a boss that has been ripping them off for years.
If Uber drivers are not making more money then they will stop without any force from the city.
From what I see is a Uber driver as being self employed and they will pay whatever taxes that apply.
No we do not live full time in KW anymore and with the amount of corruption uncovered we will not be investing our money in KW. Property values are very shaky at this time.
Will tell you this , in the future we will not use cabs any more than needed and will no longer tip any with such an attitude that we seen here. Hopefully all the drivers are not like this. Get a life, driving a cab is not a high skill job and will never make you rich. Working by the hour is foolish.
I have no desire or need to become a driver and dam sure not about to work 10 hour days 6 days a week to afford life in KW. We will be using Uber as soon as they get pass this bull shit law. See what your attitude gets you ?
where was the value of $200,000 established for a license?
how was it established?
and who established it?
200k is doubtful and in fact is a figment of someone’s imagination.
I understand a couple of years ago the independent and contract transportation licenses were going for 35k and 20k respectively.
the price paid on the last sale of an independent license transfer and contract transportation license of which there are i think 15 in addition to the 72 would generally establish the value of this intangible asset and a fleet license would be a little higher in premium but a far cry from 200k imo.
the sale value of a business is generally worth a multiple [x] of its annual profits plus tangible and intangible assets minis liabilities with conclusion being the business value for sale.
December 3, 2013: Here is the video of the City Commission meeting: starts at around 2 hours 33 minutes into the meeting. http://keywestcity.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=1&clip_id=64 And yes it does look like we just have one person in the industry coming up with that number – no one contradicts him… His name is Michael Korrack [spelling?] The owner of Key Lime Taxi says each license brings over $100,000 in income.
thank you naja and arnaud
yes i recalled that city commission meeting and that is surely where the 200k was established as a figment of his imagination due to his ‘lobby’ posture in churning the pot of discontent for ada vehicle licenses.
the issue was the fleet operator five sixes asked the city to grant them a taxi permit conversion for two of their contract transportation licenses which they had purchased from individual independent owners and out of the fanfare came the additional ada licenses one each for the independents if I recall correctly.
I had heard thru the grapevine that he had a contract transportation license a couple of years earlier issued to him by the city for the hundred dollar fee when they first came out and he sold it for somewhere in the area of 15k.
also I can see 100k in ‘gross income’ working night and day at 80% or so operations due to some repair and maintenance down time and at 100k minus costs of repair and insurance and amortizing vehicle costs and driver pay and fuel etc etcs then we need see the bottom line that I’m sure is way smaller then the 100k gross.
this is not to say that key west taxi licenses carry no premium. in a limited license regime they surely do but 200k on a fleet license is dreaming of solid gold unicorns.
Readers, What kills me about this debate is how so many of you believe Uber is representing the downtrodden and the little people, and the taxi establishments in all parts are the big guys trying to hurt the “underdog”. IT IS JUST THE OPPOSITE! Uber is the Koch brothers-Goldman-Sachs wing of humanity trying to impose a global world order based upon the same economic skull dudgery that has given more and more wealth to less and less people, and less and less wealth to more and more people, without even mentioning the periodic bouts of economic disaster their self interest causes. Their efforts are always based upon depressing wages as well, something the deregulation of this industry would do without, I repeat, without, in the long run, helping consumers. Those of you who do not see the wreckage left behind by the deregulation of capitalism in general, are simply ostriches who don’t want to see it.
Loosen up that tin-foil hat, Jerome. Uber has created a product/service that has been needed for years because, let’s face it, everything cabs represent is non-desirable.
This is how businesses become successful: because people who like their product buy/use the product over and over again.
Don’t believe me? Example: Just compare the cable industry 10 years ago versus today. ATT, DirectTV..etc couldn’t stop Netflix. They know they lost the battle and now they’re adapting–just what the KW taxi industry should do.
ahhh jerry come on….that’s right out of the alinsky playbook ‘rules for radicals’ or ‘progressive thought 101’….now the real culprits if you must know are they of the house of rothchilds and the house of rockerfeller and are the ones you need bemoan. their “new world order” is blatantly leftist totalitarian and has nothing to do with the kochs the lefts favorite whipping boys nor uber for that matter. uber simply discovered a very clever method of transporting people and made its splash big time with its very rapid expansion and in a jobs contracting world economy hit a home run!
Taxi drivers move people, I move furniture . No one regulates my rates .
Jerome , are you seriously happy with your income from driving a cab ? It is not you getting rich it is the big guy that owns the company you drive for.
By limiting the number of cabs you created the high value of the license.
Had KW simply limited the number and not permit them to be sold then this questionable value of $200 k or whatever would never been started. It is the value that forces your company to charge you $175 a day. That is a lot of rides before you make a dime. The truth is had pressure not been placed on the KWPD to stop Uber drivers then you might have continued to operate. Your greed has now put your future at risk. And I don’t blame you for defending your job. If I was a driver then would be fighting too. What will be at issue in court is the legality of limiting a license. This is a right to work state and KW is violating it by not allowing a Uber driver to work. The city has no good reason to spend thousands of tax payer dollars to defend your self created monopoly.
If you don’t understand this then you lack the education level to run a business. If Uber wins and I believe it will then you have a few options. Continue to drive for your company with reduced business or drive as a Uber self employed worker. A smart man will look at the bottom line and see who puts dollars in your pocket.
KW also faces the risk of being sued by the driver they arrested. Will the city insurer sell them out again ?
Seriously you are getting too old to be driving 10 hours a day. Your wonderful company will replace you in minutes with a new driver. You should be retired and enjoying life not working. Hopefully you have something to fall back on when your job ends.
KW has been out of control and is inviting people to take them to court. Only a matter of time till they screw with the wrong person.
Still waiting on you to explain to all of us just how the taxi business works that makes it so much different than any other business.
And I am not attacking you personally just the corrupt system.
Jimmy and All The Rest of You Who Are Such Easy Fodder For Neo Liberal Garbage, My income as a taxi cab driver is what it should be for the kind of working class job it is, as were many such jobs before the people behind Uber got hold of the world. Such jobs have been losing purchasing power for decades now exactly because of their shenanigans. Walmart is a perfect example. They sell things cheaper, but their business model has depressed purchasing power amongst those who buy things there, but people like you can only see the cheaper price. Uber might marginally lower prices for awhile, but the worker who does the job will lose income, or, in other words, the job of driving a taxi will become lower paid. And that is an optimistic look at it because once the Big Boys (Uber and such) get a strangle hold on all this, prices will be no better or even worse for the consumer. The airline industry is an example of this, as well as any other big industry that has been deregulated. I repeat, the model of capitalism Uber represents has hurt the vast bulk of working people in the world. One more thing … I am almost 70 years old, I’ve worked honestly all my life and, mainly because I am not a consumer, I am OK as far as my own well being is concerned. My arguments here would be exactly the same if I had never worked as a taxi driver. My arguments are based upon the ideology I present on a regular basis in 2 publications as well as my published book. Happy trails,
Maybe you should become your own boss and work for Uber, and then you can write a book on how much better Uber is compared to regular taxi services.
Well like it or not Walmart is what keeps other outlets from raising prices. And they actually pay better than many places. But if you want to pay Public’s more money for that same exact can of coffee or bottle of coke then go for it.
Will Uber end up as a cheaper ride and last is yet to be seen. They have a right to try. What quality will they offer I do not know. For us we only call the five 6’s. We are not as concerned about price as we are with fast service. We tip for fast good service and do suspect that a Uber customer just might not tip or demand quality service. For us the cabs looks are not an issue and pink is kind of cool. You get what you pay for usually.
Why anyone wants to work cheap is not my concern. And yes can assume a cab driver willing to work 60 hours to manage to rent a dump and eat cheap is all some want out of life. I started at 13 working for what my parents would not simply give me. We were far from poor but they made me see the value in working. I retired at 59 because we wanted to enjoy life. Jerome , something is wrong if at 70 you still must work. You will likely end up working till dead if you remain in KW. If your happy with that then fine. We have a good friend in KW and we know the rent is high. $1500 plus utilities for small apartment in new town is about as cheap as it gets. You can’t pay that with $12 an hour for 40 hours so your forced to work 2 or 3 jobs or work 60 plus hours. Let me guess and say you make $200 for a 10 hour day driving a cab. That is crazy and on slow days you might make near nothing.
Here is what will happen when Uber moves in. Your boss will not find enough drivers and empty cabs don’t make anything. He will be forced to lower his lease rate and that puts dollars in your hand not his. Just maybe you could cut back to 40 hour weeks.
Dave, No, that is just the point: this kind of capitalism has lowered earnings for workers all across the board wherever deregulation has happened. Believe me, unregulated taxi service will mean lower earnings for drivers, sooner or later. Lower earnings for workers is part of the make up of this kind of capitalism. It is in its DNA and that is why those who push it want it. This debate is not being presented properly by the media. It has less to do with taxis and more to do with what kind of capitalism is best for us all. This is much more difficult to explain to people, but demagoging things like “competition”, “free enterprise”, and other such code words of neo-liberal capitalism, is much easier. Look how all of you are so easily falling for it as the distribution of wealth becomes more and more perverted in the world. Uber is much less a taxi company and more a representative of something much bigger and much more evil. I don’t expect to win anyone in this discussion over with that, but that is the truth. Ciao
Jimmy, You have some nerve judging me for the reasons you judge me. Such comments are in line with the ignorance you display in talking about the taxi business. You know nothing about me, who I am, how I live my life, and what makes me who I am.You’ve shown an incredible amount of simple mindedness in judging people like that. You sound like Donald Trump.
Thank you I very much follow men like Trump.
Jerome, take a serious look at what you have told us. Deregulation will lower your earnings. And tell us why we should care. We have been overpaying because of the regulations. No you did not profit from it but your boss has. Most people work about 45 years out of their lives and retire. That for most mean 12 years of school plus collage and hopefully you get to retire. Now if you just spent your last 30 driving a cab then I am sure you had either little ambition or some very bad breaks in life. By the time you reach 65 you either made it or not. And sadly for many it is a NOT. If all you have going for you is a job driving a cab then I truly feel sad for you. Bit late in life to find a better job. Did you plan anything out ? You can’t drive till you die or can you ? You are putting others at serious risk driving at you age. You keep saying it needs to be regulated but offer no reason other than it might cost you money in lower wages. Sure a Uber driver can beat your price because they have less invested. Bet your boss has a fine looking paid for home in KW and his only concern is keeping them dollars coming in so he can enjoy life in Paradise. Now arrives Uber but you likely can not afford to buy a qualifying car and might be past age restrictions. I know you don’t believe this but I truly feel sorry for you and other cab drivers that are the real victims . Have no good advice other than bank what you can and see what happens. Can a Uber driver beat you ride ? If yes or even maybe then you have a serious worry. But your far from finished. The job is still very real and maybe even better. Can Uber beat your price ? If yes then you have a rough rode ahead. Sometimes better service wins over price.
I’ll start using TaxiASAP as soon as they promise to deliver ice cream upon pickup.
http://newsroom.uber.com/2015/07/icecream2015/
Oh wait, cabs wouldn’t ever do such a thing. Guess i’m never using TaxiASAP.
BTW. The Taxi-Cab capital of the world(NYC) just conceded and will allow Uber to operate. Again–City of KW–it’s not worth the legal fees to fight this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/nyregion/de-blasio-administration-dropping-plan-for-uber-cap-for-now.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
KW enjoys being taken to court. They do not care about your tax dollars. They are now paying to advertise on TV to attract tourists. Just maybe tourists are scared of a town that has cops that use tasers and kill tourists. One bad word can cost them thousands in tourist dollars. Now this new issue of forcing people to use a taxi system with fixed rates.
Thanks to having a paper that is not scared to tell the facts the world is being warned and they are going to safer more honest towns on vacation. KW will fail if tourism stops or even slows down.
Google “KEY WEST SAFETY ” and view it as a first time visitor and that is scary.
And as soon as the see the Eimer death and video you just scared off many more.
NYC is conducting a 4 month impact study on traffic congestion specifically to study UBER’s contribution. Uber does not have the green light yet.
So why not give Uber 4 months ?
Can KW afford and independant study on the effects of deregulaion and impact created on trafic if Uber moves in ? A court likely will request this and without it could not justify regulation. At best this would take many months or even a year being KW is seasonal. My thinking says the trafic would actually be reduced if cheaper rides were available. Might even reduce the number of accidents created by drunk drivers leaving bars. Will admit KW is a hard town to judge trafic because of tourist that think Duval is the only street.